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[page 11] _MENEL A RIL and other matters_ Ioreth mentioned in a letter: "No matter how much you think you know, you find yourself ploughing the Scriptures looking for the quotation or reference or confirmation that you need." How true! No matter how many times you've read the Books you learn something new every time you overlooked. Bob Foster pointed out in TJ III:2 that the Eden story and fall of Numenor have a number of parallels. Martha Muench says, "I find the parallel between the parable of the Garden of Eden and Sauron's advice to Ar-Pharazon very striking. How ironic that a "serpent" was involved in both tales. The advice could be paraphrased almost word for word." Concerning the _Hobbit_ giants: nil seems to be known of them after the encounter before the meeting with the goblins. By the text they seem to be a distinct race, not just trolls or something. Bob notes that "ent" is Rohanish (which means O.E.) and means "giant". Not that the Ents were them. But if they _were_ really in M-e one should think that the Rohirrim would have thot @thought@ of a more tree-y or something name for the Enyd if they had known of the giants (who weren't that far away). However even Galad- riel was half legend to them, though probably not so when the name originated. Hmmmm. Remember: Gandalf only destroyed _a_ Balrog. Can there be a moral (in our terms) explanation for the existence of them? See the bit on orcs. Bombadil _is_ probably the Eldest. (Or could it be the "gnawers" on II,BB,134?!). Dan Alderson(6720 Day St., Tujunga, Calif. 91042) notes that references the Fangorn as Eldest generally were forgetting Bombadil. And Tom was a rather obscure person. Note Elrond's note of this fact at the Council. The bit on II,BB,189 seems to indicate [page 12] that the ents were here _shortly after_ the formation or creation of Middle-earth as it is known: "When _young_ was mountain under moon". Bombadil, as pointed out in _Nazg_ "saw the first raindrop". Really, very little can be said of Bombadil, even with the _Tom Bombadil_ verses. I doubt that either the _Tolkien Songbook_ or _The Silmarillion_ (for a change) will have much on him either. Actuallly I'd like to see him remain sort of mysterious. I think tho _TB_ poems say too much. What is so puzzling is that he is so carefree and out-of-it-all, yet he has a great unknown power. He is "master" of forest and river, he puts on the ring and it doesn't change him. I really don't know what can account for him. There must be a 'moral' reason for his existence as anyone as Eru would be too intelligent to create something not subject to his plans or such. He must have 'deserved' his position I should think. But we can't say how or why of course. Bob Foster suggests, "Bombadil could possibly be a Vala who opted out of Val- inor, chose a permanent shape, and came to dwell in Middle-earth. But this is no doubt too romantic." "Bombadil could never be broken. To do so would I think, require the destruction of Middle-earth. Gandalf could be destroyed far more easily, and, as Saruman, bent to the will of Sauron." Another myterious person is Goldberry. From the reactions of the hobbits to her she might be something of an earth-river divinity. Perhaps (this is all quite borderlineish) these individuals may have participated in the creation of Middle-earth and were thus awarded having attained perfection long ago. From the latest evidence orcs _do_ appear to be bisexual. Nan C. Scott asked about this shortly after _Nazg_ in _Niekas 18_. Firstly, Dan Alderson and a number have pointed out the reference on _H_,BB,265 "Bolg of the North is coming, O Dain! whose _father_ you slew in Moria!" Also, Treebeard says (II,BB,96), "Are they men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?" A lot have said this means he bred them. Well, Fangorn says he knows a lot of things that aren't fully verified but are important. If indeed he knows what he is talking about and by blended he means 'bred' then this is a good point. Treebeard also says the regular orcs are negative elves, as trolls are negative ents (made in mockery of)(II,113). He seems to be pretty confident and he is quite wise. Bob says an early _I Palantir_ or _Entmoot_ article proposed that the orcs were mutant elves who had been driven out. As I've not seen it I don't know. But it seems to me that perhaps the original races were cosmicly created and later 'bred' by Sauron to produce the Uruk-hai and Olog-hai, which seem more 'human' if I may use the term. Though I stil don't know where it is, a number of people have mentioned where Frodo says that Sauron and Morgoth cannot create but only make negatives of created things. This seems to have support. Tolkien speaks of the 'foolish' notion that the dwarf race didn't have women so it may indicate all races do (I believe Cory Seidman suggested that maybe they were female when young and male when older). Although the Nurnen fields aren't tilled by orcs and aren't 'farms' I still think that the goblin court scene in _The Hobbit_ gives them a more 'human' side. And there are colorings of emotion in the talk between Shagrat and Gorbag and it does say that the orcs "still shudder" at the memory of the battle of Azanulbizar. At any rate we can be pretty sure they breed. And if so they have some relation to Peoples. Though it be blasphemy, I think all this hinting about elves and orcs may indicate that the people from whom Morgoth and Sauron originally twisted orcs could be fallen, bitter elves. The theme of fall is all through the Books. But elves didn't come to M-e until the War with Thrangorodrim did they? Perhaps when the Great Darkness came he decieved some people and made them then. Who knows? If Men (and others) could be decieved by Sauron to fight along side orcs I don't see why they couldn't be totaly brought down. There are several alternatives. Hmmm, I wonder if Sauron's being called the Necromancer has anything to do with it. Dan Alderson says, "I have this strange, heretical perhaps , belief that even the orcs couldn't have been beyond redemption." Since the wood-elves weren't perfectly good the orcs might not be perfectly bad, he says. Fangorn says (II,96), "The Isengarders are more like wicked men." However, I think that Auden's idea that the orcs as a mass can't be called wicked (see TJ III:1) but only identifiable individuals we know fell is even more wrong if he tries to say (as I do) that there should be a 'reason' for things like orcs, that they may be fallen. I just wonder if there is a spiritual side (not religious!) to the orcs. We don't known nearly enough. If they were negative or mutant elves or men this would indicate a lot. The fact that orcs were 'immortal' or very long lived is something. Because of the 'rememberances' of orcs of things ages past Bob admits they were probably immortal or long lived but asks: "If orcs suffered a collective nervous breakdown at the Fall of Sauron why didn't they at the fall at Morgoth of Sauron's first fall? Unless Sauron _could_ [page 13] create." I don't think that Sauron coud create, though _maybe_ Morgoth. I think this would be something only Eru or Elbereth or the High Valar could achieve. I do believe he could twist other things though. However they may have been given life by the "malice" of the Evil Power. This may explain the 'creation' passage on _Hobbit_ BB,52: that trolls are made of the "stuff of mountains". I don't know though. Even though It says that the orcs and trolls, etc. scattered mindless after Sauron's end, it says some ran and hid in dark places far from hope, so that it may be some didn't die after immediately. Whether this ment trolls and orcs too I don't know. If some did survive it means that A) Sauron cold create. B) He used living things for his creations (especially orcs). NOW, back to the original point: I think that the orcs didn't suffer major 'breakdowns' A) At Morgoth's fall because Sauron was still there. Even after the Second Age Sauron was still called the servant of Morgoth (III,BB,439); B) At the first fall of Sauron because Sauron was not fully destroyed, his presence was there though unformed. Prof. C. S. Kikby who helped Tolkien on _The Silmarillion_ last summer (1966) said Morgoth was a Vala. However we really don't know abt. Sauron. I upheld the idea that he wasn't in _Nazg_, and Bob said quite a bit on it last TJ (though Dick defended the Sauron-Vala thing on one point). One thing Marta Mahoney brought out is: who but the Vala _could_ survive the wreck of Numenor? Oh well. Bob comments that "Sauron wouldn't have had a chance against the Valar. Galadriel, who was far their inferior, was almost his equal". I have to agree but I think Ssauron's power is underestimated. Galdriel, the _best_ of Middle-earth, who _had_ the ring, was _almost_ his _equal_. What if Sauron had gotten the Ring? Of course he couldn't have conquered the Valar tho @though@. Bob says "I still maintain the Eru designed the world so Sauron could not have gotten the Ring." If it was so powerful why did the Last Allience win? Things tend to diminish in Middle-earth too. But I still think we are underestimating his power and the power of the Ring. I think the rings' power were muchly total corruption intead of power (though they did obviously have power). Gandalf says (BB,III,383), "As he turned and came towards them, Frodo saw that it was Gandalf; and on his hand he wore the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was as red as fire." Stan Hoffman points out a number of things about this. Gandalf realized the tremendous burden of Narya and could therefore concieve the power of the One. He had to keep Narya from gaining influence over him. This explains his statement: " The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength." But most important Stan points out: "Having gandalf hold Narya, I feel, was an example of at least the influence if not the intervention of Elbereth and/or Eru. Otherwise why would not the ring be entrusted to Saruman, the then good Leader of the Istari? It shows how deep was Gandalf's conection @connection@ with Elrond and Galadriel, and explains why none of the other Istari played so important a part." At any rate Eru interferred @interfered@ with Sauron's plans by designing the world for his plans. plans. Bob points out a very important item: "All the seeming contradictions of hopelessness on Gandalf's ((and everybody else's) part when Cirdan knew he'd come through can be explained by the simple fact that such vision is by no means permanent, and people tend to doubt their visions." I think this is the most important part of understanding Fate in relation to _TLotR_. Eru designed it so that if those who carried the burden would not succeed. But if they wavered, they would fall. So with Saruman, the Nine Sorcereor Kings, Denethor, and others*. Saruman _knew_ but doubted. Witness the prphetic and important conversation on III,BB,425: "And Arwen said: 'Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it. ""But Aragorn answered: 'Alas! I cannot forsee it, and how it may come to pass is hidden from me." The immediate physical threat, as in all religious matters, seems more overbearing and likely than the promised outcome. On 189,III, Denethor says: "You may triumph on the fields of Pelennor for a day, but against the power that has now risen *Like Númenor [page 14] there is no victory." Thus their fall could come by loss of faith. Yet, the Ring has power. Gandalf says (III,189-90): "If he regains it your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can forsee the end of it while this world lasts ((again Gandalf shows his doubts))." After this follows the argument that Auden used that Sauron was a Vala: that he cannot be totally annihilated but only reduced to a "mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot grow or take shape." May I also quote from a religious text _Prophecy_, _Key to the Future_? This passage fits this discussion perfectly concerning Sauron and Eru:"Because of the favorable position he is to hold, in that last great battle and because of the vast nuber of his army, he doubtless believes that will get the mastery and subdue the earth and possess it. I do not think he fully understands all about the designs of God..."(p.271). Divine guidance, providing the leaders are receptive, is shown throughout the books. Bob says:"((Gandalf's) function is to tell the enemy he cannot prevail; he doesn't stop the Morgul-lord from entering Minas Tirith: he merely tells him that he can't. Eru is all-powerful. Of course the good-guys would have lost if the Morgul-lord had entered, but the whole point is that he didn't and wasn't meant to. If you assume that there was no outside aid, the whole salvation of the West depends on fantastic accidents, like Gollum tripping at the right moment. Actually everything happens with some justice. I'm not at all sure how much intervention there was but that the Valar were concerned with Middle-earth is shown by their intervention to destroy Morgoth...Gandalf never does anything against the forces of evil ((by himself, physically)) except in his fight with th Balrog, and there he cannot conquer by himself." That the forces of evil were strong is shown by th fight with the Balrog I think. I have a feeling that when Gandalf passed away after the battle on Zirak-zigil he spiritually went to the dwelling of Eru to receive a consecration or something. The whole 'chance meeting' of Thorin and Gandalf (III,BB,447-449) seems to have some divine promptings. It was on this journey that the dragon (which Sauron could have used 'with terrible effect') and the ring were met with, as well as several other things. I wonder exactly why the hobbits were so foreordained to save the world. I mentioned some reasons in _Nazg_ but I feel that they _were_ chosen in the Design to bear the Burden. Why was Bilbo chosen for instance for the journey? Why did Gandalf study the hobbits? Did he know why or was it Interest? Why were the hobbits protected (I,BB,24-5)? It is my belief that the Year of Great Plenty was a divine reward to them for their part in the plan. To me, Sauron's (and I assume Morgoth's and the Morgoth's and the Nine and maybe some others') fate is far worse than total annihilation. This is my concept of Hell. Have you ever bitterly regreted and almost killed yourself because you blew a perfect opportunity? This gives but a glimpse of the "gnawing" of those that fall. Sauron, who could see the glory he could have obtained if he had not fallen, like Lucifer, knew the indescribable eternal horror he must have known, when the Ring's power was destroyed. Do the dwarves believe in some form of reincarnation? Notice on III, 439, BB, it says:"...and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world." And in the poem on I,BB,412, the last line reads: "Till Durin wakes again from sleep." Marta Mahoney asks an interesting question:"Did Sauron take his prescious nazg with him during his sojourn in Numenor?? I can't imagine him going anywhere without it. Or did he leave it behind at Barad-dur? If it was with him at the downfall of Numenor when his body was destroyed how did it survive to return with his spiritual form to Middle-earth? Also, did he sail with Ar-Pharazon or stay in Numenor, knowing that the armament would be destroyed but hoping to take Numenor? The ring may have been safer in the Barad-dur guarded by the Nazgul whom Sauron could command from afar." Dan Alderson suggests that Aule and Elbereth might be super-Valar, whatever that means...that is why and what qualities? Its on the right track I should think. Bob says the Tolkien Songbook allows one to answer some of the questions about Valar. Bob writes: "The Host of Valinor was the army of which Araw-Crome (III,136) was a part, which defeated Morgoth: the Naldor, who were the ones who returned to Eru. <Handwritten> OR IF HE DIDN'T FALL, THEN THE OTHERS. <End handwriting.> [page 15] essëa @Eressëa@ were not that Host, mainly because they weren't Valar. Morgoth stole the Silmerils ((mysterious jewels of divine light)), and Fëanor, angered, swore to recover them. Leading a large portion of his people, the Noldor, he went to Middle-earth. He lost, and was killed (I imagine). The remnants, sided by the Edain, fought a losing fight until Eärendil got aid from the Valar, who formed the Host of Valinor which defeated Morgoth and ruined Beleriand...Valimar is Valinor. One is the home, the other the land, of the Valar. The West that Galdariel talks of is Eressëa, and beyond it is the Mountain and the halls of the Elder King..." In his _Niekas_ 17 installment of ye Glossary Bob says (Beleriand): "Galadriel speaks of its being lifted again above the waves sometime, but the legends of the Elves and the foresight of Galadriel are not readily understood by Man." Continuing on the Sea: and Elvenhome: on I,456 Aragorn speaks of Cerin Amroth as "...the heart of Elvenhome _on earth_." Yet Frodo apparently noticed no change in the closing scene when he 'sails' away to the West. However we know that when the Realms were removed forever from the circles of the world, some change underwent the Sea. I believe that it would be something like this: * SEA SEA SEA M-E that is, only those who are spiritually in tune could progress from the physical Sea to the cosmic Sea, which ultimately reaches the Western Lands. The mere reference to _'Sundered'_ points out the separation of Seas I think. Another philosophical passage is from Faramir at Frodo and Sam's stayng at the Ithilien halls (II,BB,361): "...we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be." _Niekas_ 18 printed the minutes of the Yule meeting at TSA Head, two years (abt.) ago, which contains a little about Message-Applicability and Tolkien. I definately @definitely@ believe in very deep applicability and some unconscious allegory (personal views and feelings interjected) but will not discuss it at this time as I already have elsewhere and found it causes a lot of argument. I do not believe Tolkien is "sheer escapism" and will defend my points against anyone. Note such things as on war on _Hobbit_, AB, 70:"...it is not unlikely that they ((the goblins)) invented some of the machines which have sine troubled the world, especially ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once...for..explosions always delighted them." Or one Marcells Juhren points out: "An important interchange I think, that applies to our times better than all the rest of the book--since in our time good and evil are 'not clear-cut' --is where Eomer says, 'The world is all grown strange...how shall a man judge what to do in such times?' and Aragorn replies,'As he has ever judged. Good and ill have not changed...It is a man's part to discern them.'" Although Dick Plotz says the Istari are a kind of Valar, Stan Hoffman says that before they appeared in Middle-earth they may have been a brotherhood of wisemen, something like thhe Druids ((on a Christian-M-e basis)) who counselled, advises, healed, helped, and taught the People (as Valar). Alhough we know the elvish exiles were for some reason we don't know enough about their history to really discern the questions on perfection, pre-existence, afterlife, immortality, etc. til _The Silamrillion_. I asked one 'reader' what he thot @thought@ of the trilogy and he said he didn't understand it." Dale Siegler said one thing that is interesting about Tolkien is that everyone identified with some character... [page 16] Bob wrote: "Mark Sandel ((an active Eastern hobbit, don't have address)) says he doesn't want to know about Eru: there are certain things that should be left unknown ((I think I said something to that effect in _Nazg_ abt. _The Silamrillion_)). I disagree; there are a few things that _have_ to be known to understand A) the Valar B) Why nobody worships him, etc." The trology doesn't delve too deep into the lore of the Elves so I don't know if they really don't (if you follow me). Perhaps they worship Elbereth instead. Where does it mention Eru anyway? (excuse my ignorance). Galadriel's song (the lament which will be covered in the _TS_ I think) on I,BB, 482-3 brings up some interesting things. Lines 3 and 4 read:"_Beyond_ the _Sun, beyond_ the _Moon_, the foam was on the _Sea_,/ And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden tree." Bob says that with the aid of the _TS_ manuscript he has figured out the geography of the West lands. But this piece of Scripture is something I missed. Also, lines 13 and 14 bring up the questions about the elvish exiles again:"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,/ What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?"