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[page 8] _MENEL A RIL_ Tolkien is Roman Catholic. However he doesn't rely heavily on any Christian allegory (thought there _are_ points which may be interpreted this way. Also see "Christian Symbolism in TLotR" in TSA J II:3. There being One God is one point.) as C.S. Lewis did. In the _Providence (R.I.) Journal_, Feb. 6, '66. he says:"I think if I had not been born a Christian, I would have been a tree worshiper. I have always had a theory that a man isn't the same on the top of a hill as in a wood/ You can see that in _The Lord of the Rings_, I suppose." The only real point of direct divine intervention in TLotR (and then it is done naturally- as with all supernatural dealings in The Books, something like Druidism) is when Gandalf was cast into the shadow of death by the Balrog: "Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.....Naked I was sent back--for a brief time, until my task was done." His closeness to death is revealed when he cries to Gaihir, as he is carried away,"'Do not let me fall!' I gasped, for I felt life in me again.'" Since the Balrog of Morgoth, which had caused so much weeping among Elves and Dwarves, was not destroyed when it was cast into the Chasm, I am wondering what would have happened if its whip had not brought Mithrandir with it. Also, I didn't realize that Gandalf carried out one of the Elven Rings through the whole book. I _couldn't_ believe it when it was mentioned in passing in the appendices. _About_ the only time he ever mentioned it (brought to my attention by Dan Alderson) was when he said (to the Balrog):"I am the servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass". (The ring was the flame of Anor). None of The Three Rings seemed to be affected by the presence of the One (Elrond's, Gandalf's, or Galadriel's). Gandalf _did_ pass away, the Appendix says. But after his fight with the Balrog he was 'changed'. Where he had remained a bit mysterious as The Grey he now received doubled strength and White rainment. This was the climax in his participation. He now went all out. One of his first acts was to test his strength when he ways,"Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower: and the Shadow passed". And then he makes a startling statement "'Dangerous:' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than nything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." But has it ever struck you that Gandalf never really did anything terribly spectacular? Mainly he was a counselor. His most important pasts, in my opinion, were (I when he killed the Balrog (2) Stopped the Witch King from entering Minas Tirith (3) Cured Theoden. Its possible that the last might not have been done, and the Red Arrow would have still brought them. I don't know what would have happened if the Witch King wasn't stopped from coming into the City. I don't think they would have won if he had. I don't know that the Balrog would have have gone far out of Moria, if at all. But, in the light of Gandalf's potential Power, would be, or Bombadil have been the last to submit to the power of Sauron? I think Bombadil, because he was so withdrawn from the world's problems. Eve nthe ring did not affect him. When he put it on he didn't disappear, and he could see Frodo with it on. Marcella Juhren brings up a very important point in this discussion. (in am) [page 9] Astron 15 (April 7) letter):"Thanks for telling me where to find 'Isteri' (455,III,BB,52)-I really flipped (if that's the right expression, and if it isn't I can't find the right one anyhow) when I saw where it was, because that paragraph had given me some of the hardest thinking I did on the inner significance of the tale, but it was in the last part of the paragraph that struck me, where it says that the Wizrds @Wizards@ "were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron---but they were forbidden to match his power with power." This suggested to me that Gandalf may have had more power than he used, whence it might follow that when he sounded as though he had not as much power, as when he desired to "see if I could wrench it (the Palantir of Orthane) from him and turn it where I would", to "test his will upon it" (260,II)-he was not hindered by fear of falling, but of succeeding in a way [page 10] leading with the great religions of the world--Buddha laid down his kingship and did not restore it, (the prophets and religious leaders have mostly advocated spreading their message by love), Christ made it clear to his apostles, when arrested, that he could call for twelve legions of angels- but that was not the way it should be done. Examples could be multiplied I imagine, if I knew enough-- the implication seems to be that the _good must be saved from the evil without resort to power_."(italics, as it were, mine). Perhaps if full power was attempted to be used, one would become corrupted, like Saruman. Ioreth also asks why Legolas, for example, wasn't chosen to carry the ring as he could have "got into Mordor in nothing flat, and had no temptation to use the ring." Or why Gandalf didn't have Gwaihir carry Frodo in, though "It might have been necessary for them to get as far as they did by the time Gandalf returned from his fight with the Balrog because it was after that, that Gwaihir would do anything Gandalf asked." Anyway why did a simple-minded hobbit have to destroy the ring. or why did they choose him? Even though Gandalf said "Even if you choose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, not even the road to the Fire by the power that is in him." Even so wouldn't someone like that have had more power to resist the (at least) physical evils that attacked them? And wouldn't they have been able to reason better in tight situations? And got it done quicker? I really think, though it couldn't have been done that way (as I will show), that and elf-lord, or even and elf, could have zipped into Mordor, overcome the things which attacked him, and tossed the ring in before Sauron had a chance to know or the elf would be tempted (and I don't think a high elf would). Of this problem Gandalf speaks again (after Frodo): "'I wish I had never seen the Ring! Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?' 'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strngth @strength@ and heart and wits as you have. "But I have so little of any of these things! You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?" 'No !' cried Gandalf", springing to his feet, 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me ! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have need of it. Great perils lie before me.'" (BB,I,95-tho @though@ I think we should start using hardbound references out of honor, converting then back by a system -as one of that appeared in _Entmoot_, I think). But no Man, or Elf, or Ent, or Dwarf, or anyone can reason why God does certain things, for we use but a small percentage (estimated from 3-8%) of our capacity, and a god, such as Eru, would no doubt be _quite_ intelligent. Frodo and the hobbits were chosen by some power beyond (as well as volunteering, as Legolas and the others did not) for on the eve of the assault of Osgiliath a dream came to Faramir, and later to Boromir, who says,"In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there wasa growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear, crying: ........For Isildur's Bane shall waken,/ And the Halfling forth shall stand:'" And then it was the Elves who had cooperated with Sauron: And the hobbits had and their kin had brought It to light again. Eressëa was the Elves', Middle-earth the Others'. This it was the hobbits, with only 'normal' help and hope, who could, Christ-like, bear the burden of redemtion @redemption@ or at least saving the world, Glen Goodknight (Elrond) says in the Cal State College Times, May 19, '67, that if Sauron had gotten the Ring "The effects of his rule would be worse than nuclear catastrophe: spiritual tyranny of the rankest sort would result". I,323 {Image: A textual divider made from a repetition of asterisks enclosed in parentheses.} Why is _TLotR_ in single quotes when people speak? Is it because it is a translation from the Red Book? Morgoth was a problem child.... /JRR Tolkien wears a smooth, gold ring on his left hand! No kidding..... [page 11] {Image: A pattern made from asterisks enclosed in parentheses.} {Image: The Tengwar symbol representing the Latin "sh" is written to the right of the third line of the text.} and men would be turned into mindless slaves....death would be the easy way out. Ioreth Marcella: "And the thing I like very much is that the tale does not and abruptly when the evil power is overthrown;((eucatastrophe _as [unreadable] tells us_)) it gives space and emphasis to the good rule that was then set up this was due to Aragorn. It is less often, in the history of nations, that a good thing is set up in place of a bad, than that a bad government is overthrown but the next one is no better. The setting up of a good one is, I think harder than the revolution." I don't think the Valar were the _only_ literal sons (well children) of Eru. The elves, at least were also called his Children. Was Aulë a Vala? Was Elbereth, the beloved elvish power of the stars (sea Niekas-Glossary-I6), Eru's wife? Eru no doubt created the Elves' (at least) _physical_ bodies, but I feel the spiritual beings of the Elven-kind were his spiritual children. I don't except a spiritual death (nothingness) after the passing of the physical body of any of the races (save trolls and orcs- which only ran on the malice of their master- I think. Auden, last Journal, talks about Sauron and the Nine after their 'destruction'.). Certainly Eru, and the other powers, and probably the Valar, were superior to the hindrances of a physical body. Ioreth Juhren suggests that Elwing literally 'came flying' in Bilbo's poem on III,309. I don't think so but there are a lot of mysterious things in this poem ; however she also says, "Bilbo may have gotten a bit fanciful. Tolkiein thought he overreached himself a little in this poem, putting high legends into a Shire form of verse unsuited to them." But then I think the Dúnadan (Aragorn) or the others would have questioned it. And then Elwing was the grand-daughter of Lúthien, who was at least half Valar (III,388). Ioreth (and I) thinks the Valar quite possibly could have flown, being angelic powers. I think so too, but not the silly winged-sprites that Tolkien so detects and have been identified with fairies. I think that the Valar could quite possibly be compared with our own theories of angels and celestialized mortals (formerally). I don't think angels have wings and I think it is absurd to think so. Likewise I _think_ that the Valar were perfected and chosen beings from the Elves, or at least I _think_ one of the high-elvenkind could could attain this glory. Angels don't come down and blast us everytime we do something wrong, or against their will, and likewise the Valar didn't (with Fëanor for example). Then again these Powers may have just been a different 'people' (...but her mother was Melian of the people of the Valar "III,388) who watched over the affairs, But of all these things, as usual, the _Silmarillion_ tells. If the Valar had punished every deed this would destroy the free agency of all peoples. I think the idea of porgression (eternal) was also a law in the world of Tolkien. There is definately @definitely@ an afterlife. At least for Elves (who die- that is are killed, like Gil-galad) and we can presume, the others. In poems on both Gil-galad (250,I) and Lúthien (260,I) we are told that they do live on "beyond the confines of this world". And that brings up another question: where these places are. But first: if "man" exists beyond the grave (and I know he does in M-e because I think it would be contrary to Tolkien's thinking otherwise) then it is quite likely he existed at least a short time beforehand in the same form (or a close proximity). Perhaps the Elves chose to live _here_ (meaning wherever they do-I guess Eressea) in a state akin to their previous life, while Men (and such) chose to live here (as mortals subject to temptation and evil, etc.) for a short test period, or something. Those elves, that chose to become mortal, or remain here (M-e) entangled in the affairs of mortals would also suffer some of the same things, but the question again is: where is everybody? Do slain immortals and mere mortals live together after death? Perhaps those that became mortals were not totally loyal to Eru's will in the pre-mortal testing period...(All this is, of course, mere speculation. But its the best we can do for the moment)... Where do mortals go then? Back to the Realm or Presence of Eru? I don't know... I haven't been there recently. Of course some of the 'mortals' who had shown outstanding love for the Elves, etc. went to the physical (I think) immortal. Realms without passing through Death. Can you really see Elessar passing into nothingness while a lesser elf received immortality? Of course that is judging their actions only for a short term on Middle-earth. You know, if you keep <a right-pointing arrow> [page 13] {Image: The Tengwar equivalent of the Latin "v" sits to the right of the second line of the text.> going west from Middle-earth you reach Númenor (Atlantis) and if you keep going (since Europe is M-e) where do you come? America! Joking of course, since I don't think we are the Blessed Realms (literal). And where are they? We know that the Elves (and others) went west' to Ereasëa. On 519 (BB,III) we read:"They ((the _Elder Children_)) were valiant, ((in helping others when not obligated?))((that is helping men overcome their obstacles)) but the history of those that returned to Middle-earth in _exile_ was grievius @grievious@: and though it was in far-off days crossed by the fate of the _Fathers_ ((?)), _their fate is not tha of Men_. Their dominion passed long ago, and _they dwell now beyond the circle of the world_, and do not return." Marcella (Loreth) writes me: I agree that the Undying Lands (Eressea @Eressëa@) may be thought of as in another sphere ((dimension)) and think that a substantiation of this could be found in the palantir kept by Cirden, that looked only to the Sea (III, 400, footnote 2) With it you looked with 'straight sight to Eressëa: 'but the _bent seas below_ covered Numenor' _Eressëa_ thus would have been above the curved earth...and this seems also to be called Elvenhome, but Valinor and Eldamar or Elvenhome are not the same; like separate islands but accessible and in sight of each other (III,452,I,309) 2nd stanza)" In the poem 'Earendil' we find him journeying beyond the days of mortal lands," to '_other-world_ beyond the Sea". But I was stuck when I read the lines 87-88 that when in the hallowed halls of Ilmarin in Elvenhome "_beyond the world_ were _visions showed_, _forbid to those that dwell therein_.' If he was already 'beyond the world' then why this? I think the answer here is that Eressëa is beyond the world in the sense of physical form as we know it, yet here in its pure form within the aura of the Earth. This is all just guessing though. Even Bob Foster sounds doubtful about some of his entries in the Glossary in _N_ 17. I think the term Elvenhome is applied a bit loosely. It is interesting that Númenor, within 'sight' of Eressëa, was founded upon the 'island' Ellena, which comes from 'elen', the Elvish word for star...But in Legolas song (III,289), and elsewhere we read the no mortal man may discover the Immortal Realms, yet (as far as we know) the strength of Numenor _landed_ on Aman the Blessed, on the Undying Lands to challenge the ELdar. I think, though, that one had to be in a spiritual union with these lands to dwell there, for we read over and over that the realms 'lost' and that they were 'sought' and 'found', save by the Sindar'. At least at the Beginning. We also read that 'the time is passing returned to M-e against the will of the Valar and those elves who were not perfected (aside from those who _chose_ to stay, as Thranduil, and perhaps even they) had to remain in Middle-earth for a certain time to rededicate themselves. It should be noted that the Most of Valinor returned only to Eressëa 'within sight of Valinor', ater leaving to recover the Silmarili. (III,452). Also, though it often says just 'mortals' could not come to the Blessed Realms, on 452 (III) it makes a distinction between Men and Numenoreans. On 454 it says that Ar-Pharason assailed Valinor. Perhaps, as with the parts of Ellena, Eressëa or all the Realms were in the same aura or a different aura but in the same land, as seems to be hinted at in Earendil's journeyings in the Immortal Realms (I,309-10). Does Valimar have anything to do with Valinor? Is it the same or is it in the same area? On 489 (I,BB) Galdriel sings, "Sí vanwa ná, Rómello vanwa, Valimar!" (Now lost, lost to those from the East ((M-e)) is Valimar!). Tolkien seems to have many names for the same thing. Then on page 321 (I) it says: "There in the courts of the King grew a white tree, from the <right-pointing arrow> [page 14] seed of that tree which Isildur brought over the deep waters, and the seed of that tree _before_ came from Eressëa, and _before_ that out of the Uttermost West". Does that not say that The Uttermost West and Eressea @Eressëa@ are two different things? Or am I making the gross sin of interpreting a bit of lore wrongly? And how far 'west' is 'uttermost'? From 'Earendil' I think you can see there is more west after Eressea @Eressëa@. A substantiation of the idea _that_ idea along with a previously mentioned one is in Galadriel's song (I,489): "The long years have passed like swift draughts of the sweet mead in _lofty_ halls _beyond_ the West ((Uttermost West?))'. It also talks of Elbereth's dominion there (Elbereth is also called Varda). As for where Immortals go who chose to die or are slain we have two (main) clues. The first is a conment of The song of Beren and Lúthien :"...So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and _left the world_, and they have _lost_ her whom they most loved....and it is sung that they _met_ again beyond the Sundering Seas, and after a brief time walking alive once more in the green woods, together they passed, long ago, _beyond the confines of this world_." In the Lay of Gil-Galad (I,250), after speaking of his death, it says: "and where he dwelleth _none_ can say". Apparently some things are obscured even to the Eldar in this matter. As for the answer to some of these questions, or really only a partial answer, Tolkien writes: (III,392) "He ((Ar-Pharazon)) prepared then the greatest armament that the world had seen, and when all was ready he sounded his trumpets and _set sail_....and the _Undying Lands_ were removed for ever from the _circles_ of the world..." Perhaps this is why the Numenoreans were able to set foot on it before. And yet it is still (in songs of later years) said to be across the sea (literal). This is why I _think_ it might be only a different physically. This passage also confirms one idea I had: a 'dictatorship' can be both the worst and the best government. Elessar set up a government. Under his guidance it _had_ to be good because he was divinely chosen. Only those minorities were persecuted that were evil (by the judgement of the divine moral system). Evil was pretty well eradicated. It was exactly the opposite in Ar-Pharazon and the other Numenoreans' case. I agree with Auden that Morgoth, and probably Sauron (though he may have only been a follower of lesser kind), were fallen Vala. But I don't think they could be considered gods, as their parallels in the Christian world aren't. If someone could locate that quote on they only being able to create negative opposites it would help a lot. Many remeber @remember@ it but few know where to find it. I don't even remember where it states (but we know its @it's@ there) that orcs are opposite imitations of elves and trolls of Ents. We really know too little at this time to say for sure but Ioreth comments. "I disagreed with Auden that the elves are _unable_ to do wrong; _there's not much virtue in that_. I think the highest of them have passed beyond caring to; the lower ones ((and even Thranduil or the Woodelven King-all leaders were high elves)) have their imperfections- sharp tongues, ridicule, ((how about proudness or great dislike? as to the dwarves))+ with good and evil more clear out in the early stages than now, and you could make a choice once and for all- I think the elves made it when their smiths of Eregion found out what Sauron's intentions with rings were ((inability to totally resist desires seems to be the greatest weakness of the High of all the races)). Long before that, a high elf, 'greatest of the Eldar in arts-- also proudest and most self-willed" made a choice against the will of the Valar...'_leading with him_ a great part of his people ...etc." I think it is a contradiction to say that a Vala can fall but not an elf. I think even Eru, at one time (though this be blasphemy), had to progress to godhood. Without knowledge of sin and temptation I don't think he could control his own creations. I don't think Sauron is the exact opposite of the Elves. Vala, yes. I think that when it says (III,518) that in the hearts of <right-poiting arrow> +AND THE 'SINS' of OMISSION *ABILITY TO FALL the dwarves [page 17] "still burns...their long grudge against the Elves" it is not without foundation. We don't know (I don't think) what these grudges are though, and it may {Image: The Tengwar equivalent of the latin "m" is handwritten in the margins.} be that the Elves were in the right and the dwarves resent it. While I can conceive of an elf hating I cannot conceive of one lying; Faramir, a Man, even said (II, 345),"I would not s[unreadable]re even an orc with a falsehood". Possible evidence for Elbereth being the Mother is in Galadriel's song (I,489) when she says,"...._holy_ and _queenly_....The _Kindler_, Varda ((Elbereth)) the Queen of the Stars...". What _were_ the Istari? I mean what were they before they appeared in Middle-earth? Who was Eldest? This was a question posed in the TSA II:2. I thought I had the answer but now I'm not sure. The prrofs in that Journal were not very good. This discussion has much to do with the Philosophy since it concerns the Beginnings. On page 182 (I) Tom says "_Eldest_, that's what I am." And on 347 (I) he is called "_oldest_" by Elrond. Yet later (I,361) Elrond does not include the Ents as one of the Free Peoples. Perhaps he doesn't consider them. For on page 321 (III) at the parting at the Havens, Celeborn says (in reply to Fangorn's comment "I do not think we shall meet again"),"I do not know, _Eldest_" (this also suggests that even the wisest of peoples do not know what is Beyond though Celeborn wasn't too smart in comparison to his wife, he _was_ one of the Leaders). In response to Legolas@'@ question about what was Fangorn. Gandalf replies (II, 131), "Ah now you are asking much..The little I know of his long slow story ((this seems to mean it _is_ limited)) would make a tale for which we have no time now... Treebeard is Fangorn...._the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth_..." But two of the most powerful quotes in the whole Scriptures concerns the Beginnings and Tom Bombadil. After a day of tales of long ago, and of beauty and mystery, the hobbits sit enraptured under the power of Bombadil, when Frodo says, "Who are you Master?". Then Tom says, "Eldest, that's what I am...Tom was here _before_ the river and the trees Tom remembers the _first_ raindrop and the first acorn....When the Elves passed westward, Tom was already here, before the seas were beat, but not a whole long time beforehand, though long ago?))...He _knew_ the _dark_ under the stars when it was _fearless_- before the Dark Lord came from the _Outside_ ((???))..." Much to think about there, but even more suggestive is the discussion at the Council of Elrong @Elrond@. Elrond says,"But I had forgotten about Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was _older than the old_....Iarwain Ben-ader we called him, _oldest and fatherless_....He is a _strange creature_..." Then Gandalf says, "If he were given the Ring...he would not understand the need...the Wing has no power over him. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others....And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them...._He is his own master_..." Though this cannot be settled for sure, in the light of Gandalf's quote on Fangorn, and our sparse knowledge of others from the deeps of time, it seems to me that Fangorn is the oldest creature on Middle-earth of the Peoples, of those that are of Eru's dominion, but, perhaps, Tom is only a Wanderer, temporarily there on Middle-earth wroughting his wonders with the power that All, the Cosmos, is made of, and though he understands that others need him he does not feel attached, except by Good, and certainly he has not passed on to other worlds to make others wonder. But this question, of course, could only be answered by the Father of the Hobbits himself, and one I really wouldn't want answered, and one reason I don't really want to see the _Silmarillion_ (which is at least 3 volumes, maybe 4 or more) because part of the 'beauty' and facination of Tolkien's world is its mystery, where 'men' do not say they know all <Handwritten.> [MORE ON FANGORN AT THE END] <End handwriting.> One last question: Would Eru have interfered if Sauron had gotten the Ring?" On the May 30 Joe Pyse Show there was someone on (who had a masters degree in mathematics. I wonder if it was too much of a strain on him?) who said he had been to the middle of the earth (which is hollow, _of course_) and served as king of the Elves and later of the Dwarves (which are there). He also said there were giants there (by the way, what ever happened to the giants in _The Hobbit_ p.66?) [page 18] {Image: An unidentifiable Tengwar letter is handwritten in the left margin.} At the end of the interview he pulled out _TRotK_ (Pyne said he had heard a lot about it) and said he knew he was one of the characters in the book, but he didn't know which one... The Elves and the Wise (including Barumen I guess) didn't think so. This is stressed throughout. And yet Tolkien says in the appendices (III,456). "For Cirdam saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Gray Havens, knowing whence he came and _whither he would return_." And yet Gandalf and the rest were, at one point, beyond hope in a sea of the enemy (on the slag-hills). Since Auden compares Sauron with Hitler let us see Hitler's evil (if he had carried through his plans) would have merely enslaved a man's body until his death, this was mortal evil and physical evil and therefore The One would probably not interfere right away (unless this also corrupted the spirit). However in the other case, as stated by Glen Elrond Goodknight, this would be spiritual enslavement and man would have no chance to think for himself. The speculation should be, I guess, that would Eru have interfered and destroyed the natural train offthings @of things@? All the Wise (save Cirdan) seemed to think not. However Eru would wait to have men commit evil of their own free will and it this case it would have destroyed their free agency forever. Could Sauron have challenged Eru and the Valar if he had gotten the Ring? In this case I think that Frodo had Help, though ever so slightly, depending on Frodo to prove mans' worth. What does the middle in Middle-earth mean? Where is Overheaven and what? (II,260) It could be that the elves as a whole _are_ "unfallen' and that their immortality (physically as well as spiritually was given to them because they deserved it, whereas Men had to start back at the bottom again in mortal life. Those that made it to the top were like elves (the I disagree that elves are perfect) while those that fell (as the Nine Sorcererr Rings) where damned. The elves just didn't have to go through a _mortal_ test....guess of course.....THE PROOF FOR FANGORN'S ELDESTHOOD, best so far, is on p.86 (II) where he says ...I stand and look out on fine mornings and think about the Sun, and the grass beyond the wood, and the horses, and the clouds, and the _unfolding of the world_." Is that to be taken literally...I mean is he speaking of the unfolding of the morning? I don't think so... THE ONLY ELVES WE SEE ARE IN GOOD GORUPS. Melanie Weiss says she understand Timothy Leary uses hobbits in lectures to illustrate a type of utopia (reason for utopia-I, 24-25).